USPS Develops 'No Fly List' for Electronics

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Barbara Jorgensen
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No fly list
Barbara Jorgensen   5/25/2012 9:19:36 AM
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I'm afraid I see this as inevitable (the banning of certain items from shipping.) My guess is it would have been security that was the driver, however. Risk of fire is compelling enough, don't get me wrong! But I figured it would have been the potential to use a devices as an explosive that would have gotten them banned from the mail/parcel service.

Barbara Jorgensen
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A possible solution
Barbara Jorgensen   5/25/2012 9:23:36 AM
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It also seems to me if companies start removing the batteries before shipment and declare them "battery-free" it might be a work-around. Of course, the next issue for consumers is getting the batteries, which means retail. And retail relies and parcel services as well. So we are back to Square 1.

Susan Fourtané
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Re: A possible solution
Susan Fourtané   5/26/2012 6:01:29 AM
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Barbara,

The batteries could be packed separately, in the same package/box, but not in the device. 

-Susan 

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: A possible solution
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:12:43 AM
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Barbara - I also wondered about this - separating the batteries from the devices. Guessing there is a reason if that's not an obvious solution.

Bolaji Ojo
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Re: A possible solution
Bolaji Ojo   5/29/2012 7:27:03 AM
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Jenn, In many cases, it makes no sense to separate the battery from the device. Try taking out the battery of the iPad or iPhone, for instance. The equipment is sealed tight from the factory and can't be opened by a retailer or a service center without some damages to the system.

prabhakar_deosthali
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re:
prabhakar_deosthali   5/26/2012 1:31:31 AM
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I think all airlines follow this rule strictly. Any electronic item that goes into your baggage has to have its batteries( not just lithium but all types)  removed. They check it during the x-ray inspection of the baggage.

As Barbara says , apart from the risk of fire there is also a risk that such devices can be used as explosives in disguise by the miscreants.

Susan Fourtané
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Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/26/2012 6:08:39 AM
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Hi, Jennifer 

"The US Postal Service recently banned shipments of electronic products containing lithium batteries, citing risk of fire."

Is there any evidence that fire has actually happened as a result of shipping a device with a lithium battery? 

-Susan 

elctrnx_lyf
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Re: Is there evidence?
elctrnx_lyf   5/26/2012 6:42:23 AM
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Won't this be a loss of money for USPS? I do not see a clear why they do not want to ship any of these products overseas. Is it specifically due to fire accident risk or is there any other big risks?

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/26/2012 7:14:03 AM
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I found this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11505505 , it goes back to 2010. 


According to this saferty alert to operators (2010): http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/safo/all_safos/media/2010/SAFO10017.pdf    

"Testing conducted by the FAA William J. Hughes Technical Center (FAA Tech Center) indicates that particular propagation characteristics are associated with lithium batteries. Overheating has the potential to create thermal runaway, a chain reaction leading to self-heating and release of a battery's stored energy.

In a fire situation, the air temperature in a cargo compartment fire may be above the auto-ignition temperature of lithium. For this reason, batteries that are not involved in an initial fire may ignite and propagate, thus creating a risk of a catastrophic event.

The existence and magnitude of the risk will depend on such factors as the total number and type of batteries on board an aircraft, the batteries' proximity to one another, and existing risk mitigation measures in place (including the type of fire suppression system on an aircraft, appropriate packaging and stowage of batteries, and compliance with existing requirements contained within both FAA and PHMSA regulations)."  

I believe that with the right meausurements, change in packing, and carrying only a certain amount in each aircraft, it is possible to go back to shipping them. 


-Susan 

Hospice_Houngbo
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Re: Is there evidence?
Hospice_Houngbo   5/26/2012 5:17:55 PM
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@SF:

"I believe that with the right meausurements, change in packing, and carrying only a certain amount in each aircraft, it is possible to go back to shipping them."

It may depend on how the policy will affect  USPS revenue streams. My question is what will happen if other companies start implementating the same restriction policy? How will that hurt the consumer electronic business?

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/27/2012 5:01:18 AM
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Hi, HH 

"My question is what will happen if other companies start implementating the same restriction policy? How will that hurt the consumer electronic business?"

Indeed. As Jennifer reports, the other shipping companies haven't implemented the USPS' restriction policy. This is one of the reasons why I questioned if there is real evidence of the risk of shipping lithium batteries, or if it's just a precaution, a just in case kind of thing.

electrnx (see below) asked if USPS won't be losing money in the process, which makes us think that the risk may be real, otherwise the company would have continued with its business, wouldn't it? --just brainstorming here--

As for your good question on how would the consumer electronic business be affected if the other companies would decide to adopt the same restriction policy, I believe the business would be seriously damaged.

Now, don't you think that before this happens a solution will be found in order to continue with the business? 

-Susan 

Hospice_Houngbo
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Re: Is there evidence?
Hospice_Houngbo   5/28/2012 5:51:45 PM
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@SF:

"Now, don't you think that before this happens a solution will be found in order to continue with the business? "

I agree that a solution should be found, and the pausible one is that no other shipping company would follow USPS, unless they are compeled to do so by a national or an international regulation body.

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/29/2012 8:50:15 AM
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Hi, HH 

There doesn't have to be enough evidence for other companies to follow USPS, or for an international regulation. You know, I am tempted to go to the postal service here, and ask what they think about this case, and if they consider the lithium batteries of any risk. Or maybe an airline. I just would like to hear another opinion from someone who is actually in the shipping business. In a way, I smell rat. 

-Susan 

Hospice_Houngbo
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Re: Is there evidence?
Hospice_Houngbo   5/29/2012 1:25:23 PM
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@SF

"I am tempted to go to the postal service here, and ask what they think about this case, and if they consider the lithium batteries of any risk. Or maybe an airline."

That will be great. You can start with a post office close to your residence. I think I would like do the same thing here. Keep us posted.

tech4people
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Re: Is there evidence?
tech4people   5/27/2012 10:26:19 AM
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Houngbo,

Don't worry. Fedex,UPS and DHL will just continue to eat USPS's Lunch and USPS will be back begging for more Taxpayer Money Two years from now.

Ashish.

Hospice_Houngbo
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Re: Is there evidence?
Hospice_Houngbo   5/28/2012 5:41:20 PM
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@tech4people:

I wonder what USPS's market strategy team  was thinking. Or it might just be that they have more goods than they can carry. 

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: Is there evidence?
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:39:03 AM
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Susan - Thanks for posting the link.

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/27/2012 4:31:41 AM
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Hi, electnnx_lyf

"Won't this be a loss of money for USPS?"

Of course it will. But if we think about it, and if there is a high risk of lithium batteries shipments causing fire, USPS can't ignore it, unless until a new packaging method is applied to prevent any possible risk. 

-Susan

tech4people
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Its easy to do this when you are running a Non-Profit Business.
tech4people   5/27/2012 10:17:16 AM
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Susan,

First and foremost-The USPS Is not a Strictly Commercial Business.

So normal ,Realistic and Practical considerations on ways to do Business do not apply here.

Its a Bankrupt,bloated entity surviving only on Taxpayer Largesse today.

That is why they can easily take decisions which hurt their existing(&shrinking very sharply) business and still be proud about it.

For more details See HERE

http://news.yahoo.com/senate-votes-slow-closing-post-offices-210018033.html

As a  Taxpayer what I am more interested in is ,Did anyone in Senior Management ever consult Congress or the People(We own USPS today)???

Electronics represents the fastest growing section of Mail today.And the USPS wants to get out of this market ??

Where is the economic rationale behind this move???

Since every American is on the Hook for 16 Billion Dollars(the latest USPS Bailout);is'nt it time somebody asked these guys what they are doing to set the business up on a sustainable,Long-term model???

Regards

Ashish.

nimantha.d
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Re: Its easy to do this when you are running a Non-Profit Business.
nimantha.d   5/28/2012 9:20:46 AM
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So you think this is a good move ? Don't you think this will have a much more bigger impact on their business in long term than what you have mentioned ? I have my doubts on successful they will be if they continue to take monopoly stands like this

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: Its easy to do this when you are running a Non-Profit Business.
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:43:46 AM
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nimantha.d - hard to say. USPS is already losing money as consumer rely less and less on physical shipments and migrate to digital delivery. Think they will probably be taking steps to ensure that they resume these lucrative shipments.

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: Its easy to do this when you are running a Non-Profit Business.
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:41:29 AM
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Ashish - thanks for posting the link. I don't think the USPS is exiting the business altogether. It sounds like they have to bring their "standards" more into alignment with international shipping requirements.

Anna young
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Re: Is there evidence?
Anna young   5/29/2012 6:56:21 PM
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@Susan, the impact of this sort of ban is certainly significant for USPS who is observing the ban and for any other company who intends to join in the ban for that matter. I just wonder if there' some sort of an alternative method of packaging these items without the risk factor raised. Surely there's bound to be an option to packaging rather than ban their shipment altogether.  It doesn't sound a wise move.

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   6/6/2012 4:29:57 AM
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Anna, 

" Surely there's bound to be an option to packaging rather than ban their shipment altogether.  It doesn't sound a wise move."

No. There is always an option, if they want to find one. Changing the packaging seems to be the one that would help keep USPS and manufacturers in business. 

-Susan

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: Is there evidence?
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:38:16 AM
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Susan - everything I read was vague about the cause of the fires... language was "could have been caused by" lithium batteries.

Susan Fourtané
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Re: Is there evidence?
Susan Fourtané   5/29/2012 8:58:07 AM
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Hi, Jennifer 

Yes, what I have read trying to find more evidence is the same, very vague reasons about the cause of the fire. The same they could have said about something else if the lithium batteries woudn't have been there, maybe. 

-Susan

Hospice_Houngbo
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risk of fire?
Hospice_Houngbo   5/26/2012 5:07:42 PM
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How often had those "lithium-embedded devices" caught fire in the past. Do They have any statistics? Or it is just a prevention measure that doesn't rely on any valid data?

stochastic excursion
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Re: risk of fire?
stochastic excursion   5/26/2012 5:37:17 PM
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This looks like nothing more than risk management by a company whose mission is in large part dedicated to cost-effective service.  Private small-parcel carriers have hazardous material service available at a price.

Incidentally, there's been controversy over whether lithium batteries should be classified as hazardous materials.  A yea or nay on either side of this issue would substantially impact companies like Apple and Samsung.

_hm
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Re: risk of fire?
_hm   5/28/2012 8:21:06 PM
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USPS should offer an alternate solution. Making such sudden move is harmful to business. They should reconsider this decision.

 

Jennifer Baljko
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Re: risk of fire?
Jennifer Baljko   5/29/2012 12:45:22 AM
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_hm - Let's see if they resume service in Jan 2013. If they do, it was a temporary shortfall. If they don't, it will be interesting to see how they talk themselves out of it.

 

Anna young
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Re: risk of fire?
Anna young   5/29/2012 8:31:35 PM
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@_hm, I'm sure USPS is already feeling the impact of it's decision. I'm certain it won't take them long to reverse the move.

Jay_Bond
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re:
Jay_Bond   5/29/2012 8:42:50 AM
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I find this rather odd that the USPS would be the only major carrier with this ban. The USPS is hurting significantly, and it would seem that a move like this could only hurt them worse by causing consumers to use UPS or FedEx. I could understand the move if this was a universal move by all carriers, at that point some solution to the issue would be presented. I think USPS is underestimating the financial loss, and for their sake they better hope their push for more junk mail works.

Barbara Jorgensen
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re:USPS hurting
Barbara Jorgensen   5/29/2012 1:09:05 PM
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@jayBond: Good point. This measure does seem to hurt USPS if other carriers don't follow suit. They seem intent on self-destruction, don't they?

Jay_Bond
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re:USPS hurting
Jay_Bond   5/29/2012 1:19:26 PM
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@Barbara, yes, it does seem like their biggest enemy is themselves and Congress. I would say a move like this just points out the need for an overhaul of the postal service and the Congressional controls placed on them.

Hospice_Houngbo
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re:USPS hurting
Hospice_Houngbo   5/29/2012 1:28:57 PM
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@jay_bond:

My question is why would the Congress target USPS without compelling other shipping companies  to follow suit? Is there any reason to that?

Jay_Bond
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re:USPS hurting
Jay_Bond   5/29/2012 1:35:57 PM
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@Hospice, What I was reffering to regarding Congress was their overall say in the USPS operations. The USPS is hemmoraging billions of dollars. If they were a normal business, they would of been bankrupt and out of business. Congressional oversight has kept them from making crucial changes (no more Saturday deliveries and closures) that would save billions and possibly put the postal service in the black eventually. It would seem like developing a ban on batteries for overseas deliveries is going to cost them millions, and cause customers to use UPS and FedEx.

Hospice_Houngbo
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re:USPS hurting
Hospice_Houngbo   5/29/2012 2:18:08 PM
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@jay_Bond:

I see. That is certainly not the best way fo them to avoid bankruptcy. We will see whether they will back off or not.

Thanks!

stochastic excursion
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re:USPS hurting
stochastic excursion   5/30/2012 12:53:19 AM
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In fairness, much of the postal service's red ink is actually a statutory reserve ($103 billion worth) mandated for the retirement of future employees.  Here's a recent report that really gets down into the weeds.

Jay_Bond
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re:USPS hurting
Jay_Bond   5/30/2012 7:00:55 AM
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The report does highlight many issues within the USPS, but what I was getting to was the fact of having a Congressional oversight and needed Congressional approval to alter any neccesary changes to put the service in the black. While employee health care and pensions continue to plague many companies, the USPS does have a few short term fixes that could stop such serious loss of money, but still needs Congress to say okay.

William K.
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USPS not flying Lithium Batteries
William K.   5/29/2012 10:00:41 PM
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So how long is it going to take for somebody to start making fake labels that identify products as perhaps "Nickle-metalHydride" or some such? And if the battery pack does not explode or burn up, who would ever know?

Of course it is already possible to pack them safely, but it does add a bit of weight. Fireproof bags and boxes have been around for a while, and it should not be that much of a challenge for the makers to figure out which ones would provide adequate protection against a destrucing battery pack.

Of course they do have the right to refuse to carry them, but they need to understand the actual level of risk in transporting the many batteries that don't explode.

FLYINGSCOT
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no impact
FLYINGSCOT   5/30/2012 7:39:31 AM
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I reckon the USPS dictate will not affect too many businesses (or indeed individuals) as there are many lower cost shippers available.  I was amazed recently how simple and cost effective it is to ship goods via online brokerage services.  



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