This dialogue occurred on Thursday, March 10, at 2:00 p.m. EST.
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011
Time: 2 p.m. ET / 11 a.m PT
Host: Ken Bradley, President of Lytica Inc.
Topic: Price Competitiveness & Leverage – Separating Fact From Fiction
Securing competitive component pricing is a never-ending challenge for supply chain professionals. Join Lytica's Ken Bradley, developer of the FreeBenchmarking.com pricing tool, on March 10 for an in-depth discussion of the various factors affecting your costs in the supply chain.
Hi I am new member & would like to add my views based on my 3 decdes of experince in India in the area of procurement /SCM/Projects of Telecom/Electronics industry -
Price is highly debated in any business situation ,hence if we focus on say consumer product or service, then business volume( elasticity of demand ) has great brearing on pricing.
In India telecom services are lowest priced a cent/Min. Its unimaginbale .But its possible due to hyper competition and also due to lowest operational costs of an opertor. In India one can find many such examples in day to day life - say price of a decent meal - half a dollar, or price of one night stay in a good hotel - 20-25 USD, OR a Clean & safe catract operation ( a health service ) @ max 100USD.
In short price is completley dependent upon location ( country)/volume/braod specifications/urgency/and specific csustomer expectations.
Sorry for the late response . i think when the price seems high it shouldnt taken as fiction ,its fact !but seperating them when the customer bought the product and got satisfied .i mean by this PRODUCT SATISIFACTION is essential .
@Barbara, I have to really use my imaginaion, then. I don't watch television. But I'm sure I've seen worse in school productions that I have been obliged to attend.
Susan and Ariella--my first screen test brought "bad" to new heights! It was funny, though, and if I can lighten things up once in awhile, what the heck
Thanks everyone who joined us today. If you'd like to carry on the discussion, you can post messages and comments to Ken on our site. You can also e-mail myself or Bolaji at editors@ebnonline.com and we can raise some of the topics in future blogs or ask Ken to tackle those subjects in future posts.
All - Thanks everyone for participating. I really enjoyed the conversation. If you have further questions, please contact us through Freebenchmarking.com. Thanks again!
Bolaji - I agree with Joe. Close supplier relationships are as important as they have ever been, but also for older components, companies like Rochester Electronics and Vantage IC specialize in the supply of older devices.
Joe Bronson, a former president of a major EMS provider, has written on EBN about the difficulties of sourcing older components that have gone out of production especially for military/aviation products. He has also advocated tighter relationship with suppliers. What do you suggest?
mfbertozzi - I don't see Freebenchmarking.com helping with the counterfeit components. If counterfeit components were put on the market at ridiculously low prices, Freebenchmarking.com would point out this anomoly. However, we would have no way of knowing if they were counterfeit. If counterfeiting is a concern, there are many good companies that can put in counterfeit detection processes.
@Ariella--you are right, bad example. Let's try again: You can fill a BOM by ordering from each of your 100 suppliers, or place 1 order through a distributor that carries those 100 suppliers. One could argue the distributor--the middleman--is more cost effective becuase you are not placing multiple orders and processing multiple deliveries.
Fictions: 1. You have to sacrifice quality or service to get better pricing. 2) Volume is the biggest determinant of price; 3. Big companies will always get better pricing than smaller ones; 4. You can negotiate longer payment terms without effecting price; 5. Supplier relationships matter more than competitive pricing; 6. You can't be aggressive (not impolite) in making the supplier aware of your needs; 7. The 80% / 20% rule works on cost management.
I'd like to post some facts and fictions I wanted to get to earlier: Facts - 1: Pricing targets help get lower costs; 2. Benchmarking to understand your current competitiveness provides focus that drives cost improvement; 3. Sharing information with suppliers enhances the relationship and reduces costs; 4. Supply chains need to be designed for cost and performance and 5. Manufacturers need to see your company (OEMS) as the customer, not the distributor or contract manufacturer. Their marketing and R&D dollars need to go to you.
@Barbara yes, but for things like that, people don't necessarily expect the companies own people to show up. Even Amazon uses UPS delivery, and many companies specializing in delivery -- even shopping services that deliver nationwide -- rely on FedEx
Mfbertozzi, features moving to software will improve supplier margins. This will increase R&D through having more software to manage. The selling price of the new vs. the older more hardware intensive product may not change much.
@Ariella--in concept, yes. If you have a warehouse and UPS has a warehouse, why not use UPS warehouse instead? But now the customer sees the UPS guy, not your guy. Always a dilemma.
Bolaji - The pricing tool isn't relevant to the display market but it is to every other component on an apple product. Apple has made a strategically important move which I think not only serves their supply security, but will also make them first to market with some technology innovation. Apple is impressive.
"Creating leverage is all about making a supplier want to have you as a customer: Being easy to do business with, being a technology leader so that their product is associated with yours."
Prestige from a leading design, hopefully leading to bigger sales later. Interesting proposition. Innovation could be a way to attract better prices from suppliers, it seems.
Barbara - When shortages crop up, supply is more important than price. Who gets that scarce part will most likely be the customer with the best relationship. Price will only enter into the discussion if the supplier has added costs to deliver or both customers have equal relationships without strategic value.
As a follow up to my question and also related to a few questions that have been asked about who would win in the tablet market, what's your response to the move by companies like Apple, which is spending about $3 billion to lock up display supply. In this kind of situation, is a pricing tool still relevant?
Anna--you hit on an issue that's been dogging the supply chain forever--the more people you put between yourself and your customer, the less direct influence you have. But it cuts costs. It's a moving target.
Bolaji - Suppliers need to approach their OEMs, EMS providers strategically. They need to identify their needs and offer solutions that are differentiated. Same old, same old does not serve anyone well.
Ken--I definitely agree. But when shortages begin to crop up--as they may or may not be right now--does the volume customer or the strategic customer see the biggest price delta?
Many of the suppliers will desinitely look at the volumes since it is very difficult to peak into the OEM's strategic plans. More over, when there is deamnd for certain components like LCD's, the suppliers just want the volumes.
Anna Young - When you outsource be careful to ensure that the suppliers see you as the customer. I have less problem outsourcing the buying functions than I do with critical tasks like vendor selection, due diligence, price negotiation. We have seen the greatest cost reduction come from the 20% of components that suppliers have "outsourced" to third parties. Third parties just aren't as hungry as the OEMs.
Ken, Your discussion of the pricing and procurement conditions have centered on effects on and ability of OEMs to gain the best insight and leverage they can in negotiations with suppliers. However, suppliers have to carefully calibrate their own costs too and also identify new markets well ahead. What does a supplier need to do to position itself well within an OEM/EMS provider's vendor list?
Barbara - Volume is one of the smaller factors. Creating leverage is all about making a supplier want to have you as a customer: Being easy to do business with, being a technology leader so that their product is associated with yours. You need to be strategic to your suppliers and help enable their success.
Some organizations outsource procurement functions as part of their cost reduction efforts. Companies like Accenture have taken on the task of helping customers set up procurement services. Can this negatively impact the ability of a supplier and OEM to form a tighter relationship and under what conditions would you consider this a viable option for certain enterprises?
BSMS - yes regarding overpayment to functionality. We've seen many examples of companies using higher speed grade components than required, PCB tracks being cut without removing the attached componentry and people just paying too much because they believe they are competitive when they are not.
Thanks Ken. Let's take leverage. Most folks think that leverage equals volume. Whay is that not always the case? In other words, does your relationship with a supplier also give you levergae?
In one of your responses you mentioned demand conditions such as cost of doing business, energy, etc as part of your multivariant analysis findings that is factored into your assessment of competitiveness, what measures of productivity do you use in this calculation? Someone mentioned innovation and quality of products.
@Barbara-@Ken: why lack of innovation on supply chain? SupplyChainAwards2010 provide several solutions as steps ahead. Are there "obstacles" to deliver them in the real process?
Susan " If you rduce your product cost you" yes but there is always a line that you cant go further because this will effect the quality of your product .
Barbara - the factors that directly affect pricing in order of importance, based on our fidings are negotiating leverage, supply chain design, geography, channel, volume, foreign exchange and payment days.
Anandvy - Regional events tend to be time sensitive. If it affects our analysis in Freebenchmarking.com, it would probably be within a given quarter and would not represent a sustainable change. Our data is time-stamped and we can look at trends in pricing from quarter to quarter.
Thanks Ken. You also mentioned risk management, which I imagine includes stuff like oil prices. Do you have a sense as to what portion of an overall price is affected by these risks?
@anandvy: If you rduce your product cost you can build a good brand image with a good marketing campaign and good advertising. Show your customers that they can get good value and quality without compromising either of them.
mfbertozzi - I don't know whether China's domination will bring about a revolution, but it will certainly put upward pressure on pricing. I don't think it will change processes, but they will all operate around different reference levels.
Barbara - On how customers use the data - My blog on the price change formula talked about target pricing and benchmarking. Customers use our data to find out how competitive they are as a starting point and use our target pricing to begin negotiations with suppliers.
I think we can see from the questions here that there are some factors we can't control--like oil and politics--but others that we can. What are the factors that directly affect pricing?
Susan - Whenever there is a technology change as in tablets or Smartphones, there is opportunity. I think portability and instant access to anyone will make a difference but exactly how it rolls out is any one’s guess. In some of my blogs I have talked about the current lack of supply chain innovation; maybe these technologies hold the key.
1) My question is regarding "Price competitiveness Vs Branding a product". If I reduce my product cost owing to immense competition, am I at the risk of loosing the brand Image, because generaly costlier goods are seen as high quality goods.
2) How does the regional events like the one in Arab uprising affects the outcome of the freebenchmarking analysis ?
@Ken: several discussions have been done at EBN in the past weeks just to underline and take in consideration how smartphones, tablets and mobile communications (as results also of vendors' strategy from Apple and Nokia-Microsoft) could help and improve the whole electronics supply chain; do you think recent "pervasive" evolutions coming from mobile could impact pricing and procurement approach on the market by electronic suppliers?
Ms. Daisy, Stimulus packages I believe try to keep the economy from eroding so they should have the impact of stabilizing pricing that had been in free fall. Now I see pricing increase because of oil and commodity pricing and customers need to work hard for cost reduction or to minimize these increases. Without releasing confidential information on clients, we have helped many companies save money by improving their margins or avoiding/ reducing other costs. Check our FREEBENCHMARKING.COM website for testimonials.
Bruce, I think there is room for new supply chain models. I've complained in previous blogs about the lack of innovation in the supply chain currently. I'd like to see some.
Rich, Don’t know about Government being a bigger factor. They will likely try to influence through their procurement practices. Short term, I think there will be price increases because of oil and commodity pricing. Some companies will transition from China to places like Thailand and Vietnam to avoid labour and tax increases. Longer term things will settle down and new technologies will drive cost reduction.
Tvotapka - I agree there is a relationship between quality and reliability over time. Freebenchmarking.com does not have a reliability model it is a price comparison model and supplier risk model. Our Component Engineers assess component quality and reliability outside of Freebenchmarking.com.
Is there room in the Fortune 1000 supply chain, particularly with consumer products, for a new class of low-cost OCM/ODM component distributors, much like the GENERIC drug market with 30%+ PPV? Bruce
Nemos - When you are negotiating with a supplier to buy something, what you pay to buy that item is the supplier's price and your cost. The supplier's cost would be their cost of materials, the transformation costs and their mark-ups for sales, R&D, and profit etc.
Barbara - Freebenchmarking.com does 2 things on pricing. One, it gives clients target pricing on the most out of line components and two, in section 7 we report our multivariant analysis findings which provides factors for things like distribution mark-ups, regional price variations, channel, etc.
@Ken So how do you get over that hump? To get to a place where you can provide the customer with accurate results? (I'm guessing the turnaround time increases as the data is more skewed?)
TaimorZ - quality of components is critical in the assessment of suppliers but we have to define quality before it's clear what we are asking for. Quality is compliance to requirements. If a supplier can meet your requirements, there quality is acceptable and in the vendor due diligence process they should score well.
pocharle - The quality of the data is a huge challenge. Too many companies are understaffed in their procurement and component engineering areas or their tools are too old to ensure high quality data. Also, acquisitions bring in many different formats, data standards, and conventions that make consistent analysis difficult.
Barbara - Regional differences can be brought about by logistics costs, labour costs, taxes - all of which influence the price of components. This is truer of commodities than it is for more differentiated products like ASSPs. Again, here we're talking about costs, not price.
Kpeck - One of the best ways to get around tantilum capacitor high prices is to design them out of the circuit. You'd be surprised at how many applications specify tantilum where other lower costs types of capacitors can be used.
Good comment earlier regarding delivering value. We often recommend a concept called "exchange in abundance." Meaning, deliver more than what may be expected. More true for distributors running value added services than commodity deliveries alone.
Ms Daisy - Freebenchmarking.com assesses price competitiveness and supplier risk. Other important factors that need to go into a thorough benchmarking exercise would review quality methods, delivery performance, cycle time which are all business process related.
how can we hold tantalum caps down on pricing when the cost of the raw material is rising world wide and Africa has now been shut off as Australia's mining is opening back up.
Toms, I am not sure what you mean by monopolistic competition but if you mean differentiation as is achieved by many ASSP companies, then their products are value priced and not cost priced. This means the price is related to the savings their product enables not its cost of manufacturing. For example, if a product eliminates 50 additional components or cuts the size of the power supply in half that is value people are willing to pay for. Cost reduction can be achieved with value base priced products by using negotiating tactics that approach pricing when the supplier wants something from you.
Hawk, China has a strong influence on costs in most commodities. I cannot think of one where they don’t. Whether this influence in cost translates into a strong influence on price is another matter. Chinese companies selling in China generally offer low pricing. Western companies manufacturing in China but selling globally may or may not reflect lower costs in their pricing. (As with Chinese companies selling globally although Chinese companies try to capture market share with low price.) My belief is that most better companies approach procurement with the same standards of quality regardless of source. It is the quality of the product that they are selling that is key to their brand image. Many Asian suppliers have historically needed help in achieving the quality standards, although today there are many Asian companies who lead in the quality and technology field. I think the biggest difference between Chinese or Asian companies and western ones is the importance of relationship over contract.
My question is regarding "Price competitiveness Vs Branding a product". If I reduce my product cost owing to immense competition, am I at the risk of loosing the brand Image, because generaly costlier goods are seen as high quality goods.
Good to have you here. Most of the times the component prices offered to the large OEM's is always competetive. Do you think this tool will still help those OEM's
Benchmarking to understand your current competitiveness provides focus that drives cost improvement
Sharing information with suppliers enhances the relationship and reduces costs
Supply chains need to be designed for cost and performance
Manufacturers need to see your company (OEMs) as the customer, not the distributor or contract manufacturer. Their marketing and R&D dollars need to go to you.
FREEBENCHMARKING.COM works by creating price distributions for every supplier’s component and applying these distribution statistics to a client’s submitted bill of materials. Through this we are able to accurately assess a client’s competitiveness, recommend target prices at the component level that are appropriate for the client’s circumstance, find and report alternatives for single sourced components and more.
Hello Ken, Everyone- With the 1st tier M&A's of 2nd & 3rd tier component distributors for major lines resulting in higher ASP's, is there now room in the supply chain for a new class of competing low-cost OCM component distributors, much like the GENERIC PHARMACEUTICAL market with 30-80% PPV for the same functionality?
I am going to officially start this off by welcoming everyone, and introducing myself--Community Editor of EBN and Bolaji Ojo, our Editor In Chief. Joining us today is Ken Bradley, CEO of Lytica, which has developed the freebenchmarking.com tool to help buyers with their pricing issues. Welcome Ken!
I think live chats were missing on EBN..it's great to have one here..also radio shows and video talk shows might be something of great use to the members..
Hi from Cambridge. I am wondering if the disparity between Western pricing and the so-called China price is as big as people have claimed it is. Any thoughts?
@Terry: it may be the excitement of the new chat that brought us early today. We started discussing about cost Vs quality. This promises to be a quality discussion.
@anandvy: Good question! It's in the line of what I asked Ken. Even though it is as you say most of the time, that people think costly goods are equivalent to high quality I doubt that is a case that can be applied to all sort of goods or all the companies.
In your sample benchmarking report, you mention the importance of multiple sourcing as a way to reduce risk. Do you see multiple sourcing becoming easier or harder over the next decade? (That is, do you believe sources will become more diverse or more concentrated over the next ten years?)
My question is regarding "Price competitiveness Vs Branding a product". If I reduce my product cost owing to immense competition, am I at the risk of loosing the brand Image, because generaly costlier goods are seen as high quality goods.
What do you think the global short and long term outlooks are for component pricing? Do you foresee governments becoming a bigger factor in pricing dynamics?
Ken:I will appreciate your input on the impact of rules (general tax laws, regulations and permiting) that stimulate growth as one of the key factors for competitiveness. I will also like to know your view on the changing rules in China that favors the local economy and your forecast of this on future productivity within China.
Knowing that competitive component pricing impacts productivity, which in turn impacts use of available resources (human capital, financial and natural resources), what has been the overall productivity outcome for companies like yours who have adopted your pricing tool?
Dear Ken, we wll appreciate a lot your opinions regarding another topic to discuss: in the electronic world we are assisting on features' moving from hw to sw. Several implementations especially due to "Internet of Things" advent, provided us with examples on sensors controlling and so on. Do you think "Internet of things" are impacting also on pricing in buying fundamental components and also on pricing in selling final end users products?
Dear Kean, several discussions have been done at EBN on in the past weeks just to underline and take in consideration how smartphones, tablets and mobile communications (as results also of vendors' strategy from Apple and Nokia-Microsoft) could help and improve the whole electronics supply chain; do you think recent "pervasive" evolutions coming from mobile could impact pricing and procurement approach on the market by electronic suppliers?
Ken, in current Monopolistic competitions how branding can adds values to products? If branding are happening, how they are going to realize the substantial competitive advantages and gains from such markets. Otherwise, if the pricing is more sensitive, up to what extends the brand value can crack the Pricing Code. If companies are developing a brand-centric philosophy, what are the financial and perceptive values?
My question is regarding "Price competitiveness Vs Branding a product". If I reduce my product cost owing to immense competition, am I at the risk of loosing the brand Image, because generaly costlier goods are seen as high quality goods.
Ken, To what extent does China influence component pricing and in which components do you see this. I am especially interested in how much high-tech companies now secure from China and how they determine who would be on their approved vendor list. Do they approach procurement in China with the same strategy as they do in the West or are there key differences?
Ken, many of the companies has a fair pricing policy by considering different factors like basic cost of the raw materials, employee’s wage, ROI for investment, marketing and a marginal profit. We know companies are struggling too much to find out a place to sell their products due to much competition. For reducing the price, the seller or company can compensate only up to certain extent in their margins and the next option for them is to compromise in terms of quality, up to an extent.
So it’s the hard time for companies, to come up with some cost controlling mechanism rather than compromising the quality. By considering the above scenario, can you little bit elaborate about your formula, Price change = target pricing x benchmarking x critical first steps > supplier resistance, and (C=a.b.c>R).
EBN Dialogue enables and encourages you to participate in live chats with notable leaders and luminaries. Not only editors and journalists, but the entire EBN community is able to comment and ask questions. Listed below are upcoming and archived chats.
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Thailand Stages a Comeback Join EBN contributor Jennifer Baljko on Thursday August 23, 2012, at 11:00 a.m. EST for a live chat on how electronic manufacturers in Thailand have shored up their supply chain to reduce the impact of future natural disasters.
Euro-Crisis: What It Means for High-Tech Firms Join EBN Editor in Chief Bolaji Ojo and Contributing Editor Jennifer Baljko on Thursday, July 12, at 10:00 a.m. EDT for a Live Chat on high-tech and Europe's economic difficulties.
Microsoft Surface: Potential Winners & Losers What are the implications for the electronics industry supply chain of Microsoft Corp.'s decision to launch its own tablet PC? Join industry veteran and EE Times' systems and OEM expert Rick Merritt on Tuesday, July 3, at 12:00 pm EDT for a Live Chat on this subject.
Join EBN contributor Jennifer Baljko on Thursday August 23, 2012, at 11:00 a.m. EST for a live chat on how electronic manufacturers in Thailand have shored up their supply chain to reduce the impact of future natural disasters.
Peter Drucker famously said "Trying to predict the future is like trying to drive down a country road at night with no lights while looking out the back window." Yet in the razor's-edge world of electronics—with a lean supply chain and just-in-time demands—the need to know the future is vital.
You've heard the saying "the No. 1 supply chain risk is your people." That hasn't always been the case. But today's complex global supply chain requires a new type of multitalented employee. It's one who understands, finance, marketing, economics, is savvy with technology, graceful with relationships and can think analytically.
Where are these people? Are universities properly preparing the next generation supply chain professionals? How do train your existing workforce for these new, demanding positions?
Brian Fuller, editor-in-chief of EBN, will lead a 60-minute Avnet Velocity panel discussion that will ask and answer these and other questions swirling around today's supply-chain talent challenges.
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