Labor Costs, East & West, Part 1

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t.alex
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It really depends
t.alex   12/2/2010 11:11:42 PM
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Certain things are cheaper in China, such as manufacturing. However, when it comes to research & development, the West may still hold the competitive edge.

tech4people
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My question for all those who voted Yes.
tech4people   12/2/2010 10:49:15 AM
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Dear Friends,

This is especially for all those who voted Yes.

Do you have any idea how much Labor costs have to fall in the West and/or the Chinese Yuan has to rise to make Western Exports competitive with China???

I have actually gone through the numbers.

And we are talking about a Devaluation in the US Dollar of about 35% (vs the Yuan) or a 35% cut in Wages for Western employees.Think for a while and figure out who is going to make the sacrifice?

Or will they try to meet half-way?

Say China revalues the Yuan by 15%(vs the USD) and Western Employees take a 15% pay-cut???

Todays Western employees are more inclined to simply go on benefits which will go on until the Value of the US Dollar is reduced to zero.Like in this case...

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/09/uaw-workers-vote-457-to-96-to-close.html

As for China revaluing the Yuan upwards...They have made it clear it won't happen no matter what the rest of the world thinks.

Which is why we will most probably see most if not all Manufacturing shift to China/Asia.The only saving grace for Western Manufacturing is Oil Prices(priced in depreciating US Dollars).If Oil becomes very,very expensive then it no longer makes sense to manufacture half way around the world for consumption in the West.On the other hand,I am wondering does the Bankrupt Western Consumer really have any credit left to keep on consuming???

 

Not a pretty picture for the Global economy.But thats just the way things are today.

Ashish.

Barbara Jorgensen
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Labor costs
Barbara Jorgensen   12/2/2010 9:16:07 AM
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Hi Mike L,

I agree with you on point 1, but on point 2, I believe China is actually imposing more environmental mandates on industry than the US ever has. Its so-called "RoHS" policy goes beyond the EU's in scope; it's anti-pollution laws are extremely ambitious and its focus on green technology is leading the globe in terms of investment.

Granted, the quality controls on products coming out of China have a lot to be desired (baby formula; children's drinking glasses), but I believe the penalties in these cases were swift and punitive. For all the other issues, I don't think China is any friendlier to polluters than the US.

MikeL
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Some reasons for outsourcing
MikeL   12/2/2010 7:56:28 AM
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It should be obvious to all the major reason that most of US manufacturing has been out-sourced to China is to save money.

Company management has a responsibility to its shareholders to provide them with the best return on investment.  Why

has manufacturing in China been so cost effective relative to US homeland operations?

1.       Unions, which once played a vital role in standardizing working hours and obtaining for their members a just wage,

have gone way beyond their previously humanitarian contribution to actually cripple companies that still maintain

operations in the U.S.   Ever trying to justify their existence unions have added many costly benefits and workplace

restrictions that now make manufacturing in the U.S. uneconomical.

2.       Over the past thirty or forty years the U.S. government has imposed numerous environmental mandates on manufacturing

firms, some of which are specious, in order to placate “green” activists.  Similarly the government has imposed complicated

tax requirements,   HR benefit and  other record-keeping requirements which serve to drive up the cost of

manufacturing  (or, just plain, doing business) in the U.S.  

Barbara Jorgensen
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Labor costs
Barbara Jorgensen   12/1/2010 1:30:22 PM
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I think the high-tech industry--which is generally non-union--has led other industries in accepting wage cuts. Even CEOs occasionally take $1 in salary when business is awful. I wouldn't expect the same from heavily-unionized industries (auto; construction; infrastructure development) or the finance industry. Finance execs just took major bonuses (again). Granted, the financial sector does not create manufacturing jobs, but it controls a lot of the activity publicly-traded companies are involved in. If a manufactuing company's stock tanks, don't look for them to be building in the West any time soon. In fact, Wall St rewards companies that cut costs--even when it means moving jobs offshore.

I think a seismic shift in the financial food chain is also needed before we see the kind of chnages that will spur more US manufacturing expansion.

Hardcore
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Re: Labor Costs, East & West, Part 1
Hardcore   11/23/2010 6:01:42 PM
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There is actually a lot of 'robbing peter to pay paul"

for example the government may give certain days off above and beyond the normal holiday entitlement.

legally 'yes' the workers SHOULD enjoy:

1. Medical

2. Housing fund allowance offset against future purchase of property

3. Maternity.

Usually many companies 'substitute' days in, I.E you can have the Government Wednesday off, if you work Sunday., which in reality is actually double time but substituted for a single time payment.

Then there is maternity benefits, which in china are surprisingly strong and forward thinking, both in payments and time allowance, furthermore the husband is also allowed paid leave under china law, unfortunately in many cases the businesses block both maternity leave for the parents and then fail to make the full payments to the female.

Then there is the issue of overtime payments, during my time as an ethical auditor, there were massive 'frauds' in this area by many many companies used by 'big' name companies.

The fraud works something like this:

You have multiple clocking on/off machines, the machines are set so that one lags the 'real' time or is even offset by 8 hours.

 

You log in with the 'real ' machine then log off with the retarded one, and  Abracadabra, 4-6 hours of overtime magically disappears.

They then do the same for shift work, with both clocks being retarded.

There are many frauds  such as this,  but when a local government has > 25,000 factories in a single area it becomes very difficult to manage, they are getting better but it is a massive job for the government.

But when they do finally get on top of it, you can expect costs to rise significantly.

 

Bolaji Ojo
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Re: Labor Costs, East & West, Part 1
Bolaji Ojo   11/23/2010 4:35:50 PM
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The hidden and uncredited costs of doing business in China must be huge especially based on the way you enumerated them. I wonder if the contract manufacturers to electronic companies in China, for instance, pay all of the additional costs employees in the West enjoy. Do they provide health insurance coverage, give sick and vacation days, retirement plan, etc. As you said, if these are currently excluded from total wage packages, then China's labor rates are grossly understated. Should they be added someday, we may see a sharp increase in China wages.

eemom
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Labor Costs, Can US compete
eemom   11/22/2010 7:10:27 PM
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We have seen jobs move out of the US to countries like China for decades now.  Even if labor costs start to rise, we will be hard pressed to see these jobs come back to the US.  Manufacturers cannot bear the increase in production costs, taxes, labor costs etc.  Even if China's costs increase, they will probably still be lower than what manufacturers can absorb in the west.  Manufactuers will find other countries where they can set up production plants in which they can continue to keep their costs down or even cut them further.

Hardcore
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Re: Labor Costs, East & West, Part 1
Hardcore   11/22/2010 6:05:36 PM
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The Idea that costs in China are some how magically cheaper is actually to a large extent a misnomer:

When you get down to the basics you find that somewhere along the line, the actual costs should be much higher. Many of the businesses are actually operating out side the law as regards to minimum wages, maternity leave, pensions,medical, housing, moving allowances, government taxes, and environmental protection.

If you actually sit down and go through the China governments requirements for workers, they are really ahead of their time as regards worker protection, benefits,Tax and other requirements.(even by western standards)

Unfortunately many business people treat these laws as nonexistent(certainly the Tax part), this is where much of the 'edge' comes from, it is not down to advanced production methology (anyone who has actually visited a China production facility will be aware of the absolute chaos that exists in >90% of the facilities, don't even get me started about the supply chain!!)

Once the manufacturing within China is 'reined in' and starts to operate fully within the law/ quality/traceability requirements, costs will escalate rapidly, causing much of the low-tech manufacturing to be forced either further in land or even out of the country. (Vietnam, North-Korea)

Currently the China Government is trying to move towards the 'second coming', that is to say a secondary wave of high technology manufacturing, with home grown technology (own chips, own standards, own materials) specifically targeted at the China market rather than external markets.

 

Ms. Daisy
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Re: Labor cost not only factor
Ms. Daisy   11/22/2010 4:10:18 PM
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Jlman:

Germany's high labor cost in Europe, coupled with high productivity and value contribution by their labor market has only helped to make Germany recognizable but not competitive. Germany will soon not be able to compete with India and China in terms of manufacturing. Gone were the days when PUMA was the sporting clothing of choice because they were  made in Germany and cheap. Moving of US manufacturing to China at a time when labor in China was cheap has made the competition one sided. The rise in labor cost in China can never match that of the West.

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