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Alternate Parts Sourcing: Challenges & Opportunities

233 comments on “Alternate Parts Sourcing: Challenges & Opportunities

  1. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    This is a test

  2. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Hi, Bolaji. I came to test, too, because all my Internet connection has been acting weird. 

  3. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Is there a delay in the chat today? 

  4. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Good morning. This is Bolaji Ojo, editor in chief at EBN. Our Live Chat session with Douglas Alexander on the challenges and opportunities of alternate parts sourcing will begin in approximately 20 minutes.

  5. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Hello, hello, everyone 

  6. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Susan, hello, you're early. So am I. I just wanted to be sure I had the right address.

  7. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    We will begin our Live Chat with Douglas Alexander, consultant and components engineer, in 15 minutes. Please stand by.

  8. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    Hi all!

  9. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    Hello everyone and good afternoon.  (I just finished my dinner)

  10. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Hello, Ariella, and Anna

  11. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    We will begin our Live Chat with Douglas Alexander, consultant and components engineer in 5 minutes. Please stand by.

  12. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    Hello Susan and Ariella.

     

  13. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    Hi everyone! 🙂

  14. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    Hi, Anna

  15. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    This is Barb checking in

     

  16. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    Hello Barbara.

     

  17. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    Hi, Barb

  18. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Welcome to today's Live Chat with Douglas Alexander, components engineer, consultant and regular blogger on EBN. Today, Douglas a veteran of the electronics industry will be addressing the subject of alternate parts sourcing and focusing on the challenges as well as opportunities in this area.

  19. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Hi all 🙂

  20. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Hi Douglas

     

  21. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Hello everyone.

     

  22. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    First, some housekeeping. Teh views expressed here today are those of the individuals and don't necessarily represent those of EBN and UBM LLC. To start, we will ask Douglas for some opening remarks to be followed by questions from EBN editors. Please hold your questions and comments until we open up the floor.

  23. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Hi, Barbara, Taimoor, and Prabhakar

  24. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you for joining me on this discussion. I would like to start by asking: When is an alternate part search performed and who does this? It is best not to have to do a part search as an emergency response but life happens and not having approved alternate parts plan is like living in an earthquake region without an emergency plan. You don't really know when the “big one” is going to hit, but it is best to be prepared by taking specific precautions to meet the potential disaster.

  25. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    Hi Susan

     

  26. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Test

  27. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    A solid engineer will try to find an alternate during the design stage of development. The Design Engineer takes ultimate responsibility for the product design including component selection. This does not let the Component Engineer off the hook, but the CE needs the Design Engineer's approval before adding to the AVL. Hopefully, the company is using formal ECO/ECN procedures with routing authorization signatures. There are services like Datasheets.com that list “suggested alternates and also Total Parts Plus, pay service, so there is no shortage of resources out there, but the buyer must also have the final approval of the Design Engineer before purchasing the part. Unless there is a routing specification on EOL Notices, the DE usually doesn't hear about an EOL situation on a mature product unless the subscriber to the service lets him or her know. Also, the Item Master database should also note EOL under “Part Status” field.

     

  28. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    Hi all…

  29. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas–what about when the shortage is on the production line? WHo usually gets the call?

  30. elctrnx_lyf
    June 14, 2012

    In general component engineering team along with component review board will make the choice of second sourcing components.

  31. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    I feel there should always be back up options in the design phase.

     

  32. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Please hold off on questions for now.

  33. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    my internet too has been misbehaving some how too

  34. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Usually, the Production Supervisor who will forward the request to either the stockroom or purchasing.

     

  35. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Nothing rattles a production operation more than a line-down emergency due to a component availability problem. Be prepared for the “Big One”. There really is no better disaster preparedness than knowing when, where, and how to identify, qualify, and source alternate parts needed to resolve and rescue a factory in distress.

  36. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Good Morning everyone

    Brian75137

     

  37. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Initial alternate part search at design time – Non emergency
    The main procedures for alternate part sourcing happen when a new part is selected for a design.

  38. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    When someone is faced with this–say, in a rush to find that second source–what are tehir biggest challenges? Some tell me it too much information to cull thorugh

  39. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    It needs to undergo a big design cycle once again from identification upto new fabrication

     

  40. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara-I agree.We all suffer massively from Information overload today.

  41. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    is componet availability the problen or not having access to original components

  42. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    Information overload tends to lead further to massive Mental Saturation too

  43. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Please hold off on all questions for now until Douglas completes his prepared remarks.

     

  44. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    I will notify you when to jump in.

  45. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    we can not really do without information

     

  46. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    The line has come to a stop because the part on a PCB or other assembly cannot be completed and so higher level assemblies cannot be produced. This is a very “HOT” emergency because not only the line goes down but other resources are redirected and costly set-up and tear-downs are instituted to redirect the labor force. In the worst case, there is a complete work outage and people are sent home.
    Field Emergency – Customer equipment cannot be repaired
    This can severely impact customer satisfaction with not just your products, but also your company. Your reputation is on the line as some companies are so tightly connected together through industry trade connections or the supply chain in general; word of mouth from an unhappy customer to a prospective customer may kill future sales.

  47. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    In IT it has become a very common problem-Most vendors want to offer Single point windows for everything-even if it leads to massive overload/numbness for the end-user

  48. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    Few components are stopped due to various reasons

     

  49. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you Douglas for those comments. I believe Barbara had some prepared questions.

  50. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Good morning Barbara

     

  51. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Hi Douglas. One of the compliants I hear from engineers, at desgin or at the last minute, is comparing data from site to site. IS something such as Datasheets the fastest way to find alternatives?

  52. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Datasheets is one I suggest as the service is fast and comprehensive. I also know that Total Parts Plus has a good listing of alternates but I believe that is a pay subscribtion service.

     

  53. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    I believe that's one of the issues being discussed earlier about the availability of information.

  54. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    okay

     

  55. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Are alternatives usually identified in the designer's library?

  56. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    I would add that these part alternates should only be considered as suggested parts until a Design Engineer or Component Engineer has reveiwed and approved them.

  57. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    Alternatives are identified by them

     

  58. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Another issue I hear about is an engineer selecting a part that the buyer cannot source, for EOL or antoher reason. Is this still a common occurance?

  59. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Usually, if the DE has designed with alternate parts in mind, the alternates are listed on the Apprvoed Manufacturers List AVL in the Item Master.

     

  60. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas,

    I agree with you on that

     

  61. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    Hi Everyone

  62. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    I see you emphasize the components engineer but not the design engineer. I guess that must be because the design engineer has already moved onto other work.

  63. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    I commented on EOL earlier and I think that EOL notices don't get to the Design Engineer on mature products unless he is on the EOL routing notifications.

  64. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara-Its a very real problem;very often Design Engineers select parts that the Buyers are unable to locate easily.This creates a lot of heartburn for all concerned;simply because of the delays involved in the project.

  65. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    It makes sense to have alternatives on the AVL or in the item master. In the event that they are no longer available for purchase, is a Rochester or e2v the next step? Or is there another alternative?

  66. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji, there's always people to do the job. And perhaps the design engineers are working in a team

  67. saranyatil
    June 14, 2012

    Design engineer comes only at macro level

  68. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    There's an interesting dichotomy here. Do design engineers design all the time with alternate parts in mind or do they leave this to purchasing? Do design engineers get involved in issues such as green certification, etc., or do they just leave all these to the procurement guys and the components engineer. These are some of the rhetorical questions I wonder about in this process.

  69. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji, Correct. The DE is consumed with Development. Sometimes there is a Manufacturing Engineer or Sustaining Engineer that can handle the alternate part emergencies along with the Component Engineer.

  70. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people rather like composers who write music that is difficult to play? They focus on the final product rather than process.

  71. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Please dive in with your comments or questions for Douglas. It's important to note he may not be able to answer all questions. EBN editors will respond as necessary to some and we welcome the views of people on this live chat too.

  72. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    hello everyone.

  73. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @ Bolaji.

    The DE disciplines will require the best effort to find an Alternate Part. If not, then Purchasing is notified and the Item Master indicates that this is a sole source part.

  74. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella i agreed with you.

  75. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-What about in small companies;where one Engineer usually wears many Hats?

  76. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    In my opinion the final responsibility of an alternate part usage lies with the design engineer. So why not have a process in the design deptt to take care such issues?

     

  77. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    We titled this session as “Alternate Parts Sourcing: Challenges & Opportunities”. What are the opportunities a company can gain from having a flexible alternate parts strategy?

     

  78. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Rochester and e2v are companies that manufacture components from original die and specs, for those of you that might not be familiar with the names…

  79. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people good question, I had similar doubt.

  80. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    at what point do componet engneer and design engneer get to meet

  81. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas -I understand that but very often when One person is filling more than one responsibility things get very messy in coordination between the Designer/End User and the Supplier.

  82. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, Correct. At many companies the design engineer is also the components engineer, manufacturing engineer and the procurement guru. For companies like this the responsibilities merge quite easily.

  83. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas: How many alternate vendors/suppliers should company keep in their records for each component who can be contacted once the primary supplier cannot supply?

  84. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    hello everyone.

  85. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @tech. The biggest hat is product availability for production and that means the product can be produced reliably over its life cycle. The DE should keep part availability in mind.

  86. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Prabhakar, that's the challenge being faced by most of the  manufacturers.

  87. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    The CE meets with DE reularly to “thicken” the AVL with alternate parts.

  88. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    May be it is the joint responsibility of the DE and component engineer to identify the need for alternate parts sourcing and give the approved alternate parts list to purchase people for keeing the sources ready to supply

     

  89. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas when you say regularly how often do they meet ? And how critical is it that CE and DE are in synch with each other ?

  90. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Taimoor

    At least two. Parts on the PPL should have at least two and upwards.

  91. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-As an Engineer I have faced this issue many times when the Supplier tends to mislead u regarding the Availibility of such and such part.IN such a situation would'nt the best option be to straightaway say No.We don't have it and don't know where to find it?

  92. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    @adeniji–sometimes never. However, engineers have to keep purchasing in mind and buyers increasingly have engineering acumen–the systems owrks better this way

     

  93. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    It would save a lot of time for all concerned parties.

  94. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Prabhakar, that is very good suggestion.

  95. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @tech

    Suggestions are good. But that is just the starting point. There can be a serious conflict of interest issue and many times the sales person is not familiar with your particular design idiosyncrasies and parasitic issues. That is to say, they are not your engineer familiar with all the gotchas of your product subtleties.  In the end, they are trying to sell you a product. It could be your end if you take their advice as gospel.

  96. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @TaimoorZ, I would say the best answer to your question would be that it depends on the resources available to the company and the nature of the product being sourced. A recent article by Ken Bradley talked about companies that have “Virtual Second Source”, which in reality may be qualified sourcing partners but in reality may not be viable alternate sources for various reasons.

  97. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4peopl why would they want to mislead them?

  98. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-Quite right. I don't but thats come with experience and always having a backup supplier on hand.

  99. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people: I think one of the things you should consider while selecting a vendor is their integrity and commitment. This is as important as the quality of their materials.

  100. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Hi Douglas. When a part goes EOL, often someone will buy up the last existing inventory. What partner is the best to do this: the OEM? EMS? maybe a distrbutor? Is there a best practice for this?

  101. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella-Life is never as Simple as it looks.

  102. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    “Virtual second source” is interesting cocnept. where can we get more info about it Bolaji ?

  103. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Taimoor-Words like Integrity and Commitment sound Good in Theory;In practice its a completely different story.

  104. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Ultimately, the Design Engineer and Component Engineer are responsible for all alternate sourcing approvals. Purchasing must validate the source and an ECO should be used to incorporate the part.

  105. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4 True, but I do wonder why people would do that if it would boomerang on them.

  106. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people: I think recommendations from other companies about these vendors should give you an idea about these..

  107. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara

    If there is a requirement to buy obsolete components, then the sources must be pre-approved or quickly surveyed and approved before buying from them. This is a main highway for counterfeit or used parts. There are certification programs for distributors of obsolete parts. These certificates are based upon having anti-counterfeiting procedures in place and in action.

  108. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, That would be the morally and obligatory thing to do but often companies don't want to lose a sale and don't think about the longer-term relationship with the customer. I believe one of the things Douglas has emphasized in previous blogs is that the final responsibility for the bill of materials should never be transferred to a third party no matter how important the relationship. A company must maintain control of this kind of decisions.

  109. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella-Typically what tends to happen is Salespeople move around  a lot(Jump companies whenever it suits them);so they are more focussed on closing the deal rather than whether the customer gets the right product.

  110. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji

    Exactly

  111. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas what does these certification programs exactly do ? Are these certified products safe to use ?

  112. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, why do you have to put on paper if you cant practise what you preach?

  113. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella, For short term gains. And if they only expect to do this one business with the customer. This can easily be the case with unscrupulous brokers.

  114. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji-Non-transferrence of BOM to Third parties ??? Its become very-very difficult today..

  115. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    If the reputed distributors like AVNET can have parts catalogues where equivalant alternate parts can be mentioned .  probably this would be from their technical team and not from their sales people

  116. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji @tech4people Yes, that is what salesmen usually do. I can see it for a one-time sale. But they still risk damage to their company's reputation.

  117. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella It may be not for misleading, but to retain the customer so he doesn't go to another supplier.

  118. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Anandvy,

    They train to the testing and inspection requirements for anti-counterfeiting purposes. Black-topping detection, Logo fraud etc. and much much more.

  119. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji-I would like to do a Poll here-How many people here are Business Owners/Salespersons?

  120. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Tech4people, I agree but you just highlighted a potential problem with that scenario. Even if a company outsources all production, it should still keep some insight into the BOM. Not to do this could be corporate suicide.

  121. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, I am neither business owner nor sales person, I am just end user.

  122. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @tech

    Owner of CE Consultants

  123. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Having alternate parts identified and pre-qualified is especially important within the Aerospace community. 

  124. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people I have done sales. Though I never misreperesented the service, I found that many in the same industry did. Consequently, I was tarred with the same brush. For ex. it was always assumed that the price I quoted was inflated, and that I could be bargained down. That's b/c it is typical for people to quote double what they are willing to settle on.

  125. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas, By the way, you didn't highlight the role of the C-level executive in this situation. CFOs and CEOs have become highly interested in supply chain issues and in procurement because they realize these are areas of potential cost savings. How do they influence this process?

  126. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @Brian, not only aerospace but also defence deals

  127. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Correct. I include anything Mlitary or Space related as having the same criticality

     

  128. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Brian-Its become important everywhere today,especially after last years Tsunami in Japan and Floods in Thailand.You cant depend on one supplier only.

  129. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Brian75137, I agree and also in the medical as well as industrial markets too. There are challenges as well as advantages to these markets too. In many cases the components go end of life long before the devices but this also opens up opportunities for after-market suppliers to support that product, which can inject counterfeits into the system …

  130. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    The recent workshop i attended organized by AVNET people who presented and recommended components and parts to vendors were design engineers. Even a participant asked question at AVNET stand the guy there said he has no clue about the question – “sorry am not a technical person please wait let me for the guy who could answer your”. question

  131. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji: That's a good point. I think C-level executives would look for suppliers that suit them in the long-run rather than go for short-term savings..

  132. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    To reduce the burden on DE and also to have the technical opinion on whether an alternate part is a perfect fit for a given design, we need third party reports  from distributor companies who can invest in such parts evaluations.  It is similar to the drugs – for any given drug there are always alternate brands with similar formulation

  133. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji,

    Not just cost savings, but these guys are concerned with Company reputation and sales potential. I have seen a CEO get involved with personal contacts to help buy parts from a competing company to keep the lines up.

  134. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas, is relying on a partner, say a distributor, to identify and source alternatives a good idea?

     

  135. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Tech4people, You'll be surprised how many company execs tell us they can't afford to double-source components!

  136. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    @Tech: I have done both business owner and sales 

  137. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    I disagree.  You musr Prequalify all of your suppliers and use the AVL to identify altrernate parts.

  138. elctrnx_lyf
    June 14, 2012

    A separate sourcing team with more power to control the part sourcing will produce better results than engineering team over seeing both design and part selections. The more focus put into this by the executives they would result in more right time deliveries.m

  139. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Wale unfortunately that is not uncommon.

  140. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji-I know its an issue wid Liquidity being tight everywhere but u should know how to negotiate with Your company's Finance Department!

  141. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @prabhakar

    Similar is a dangerous word when it comes to alternate part qualification. For the most part, you are looking for drop in replacements with the same form, fit, and function. Substitute parts using Temporary Manyfacturing Deviations accommodate higher voltages like for capacitors, but they are not alternates because you do not want them in your item master as direct drop ins as case height may not work in another assembly.

  142. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella, a situation the designer not available? What do you do?

  143. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @tech negotiating with finance dept is tough task

  144. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Tech4people, The issue is not just money. It also has to do with qualifying the parts and also depends on the nature of the component. There are application specific parts that cost millions and which may be available only through only a handful of suppliers. In this case, what companies try to do is ensure they can second source — but from the same supplier. That doesn't sound as impossible as anyone may think. They just try to ensure that the same supplier has enough redundancy built into the production system that one line down doesn't shut down production.

  145. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @anadvy, negotiating with finance department to part with money is always a tough task anywhere.

  146. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji-Yes I agree entirely wid that thoughtprocess.Makes sense.

  147. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    Hmm, just tried to put in a reply, but I don't see it.

  148. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @elctrnx

    Good point. Anytime an exec is involved in makes things happen faster because priorities are adjusted. IN ISO 9001 or QA in general, the Execs make the enforcement happen. They have to sign up or the program fails.

  149. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    A good point Douglas on drop-ins. From what I understand, even after-market manufacturers such as Rochester can make a component two ways: the first is an exact replica and the other is “performs like.”

  150. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas, By the way, just to clarify. The reason you emphasize the importance of proven alternate parts sourcing strategy is not just because of pricing, is it?

  151. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    @tech: this is why there should be  continual disalogs going on between the CE & the DE.

     

  152. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    ONly thing is I prefer to second source from a Manufacturer in a completely different country.

  153. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella, the game of quoting double of what you are willing to settle for is something I have never understood. It's a game everyone plays knowing it's a game. Then when there is someone that doesn't play the game he/she is taken as someone who does just the same.

  154. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    But @Douglas such alternate parts could be quite useful for service department where urgency of repairing a failed board is quite important

  155. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji,

    Pricing in an emergency takes a back seat. The cost of adding a buck to a component vs shipping a $25,000 product to a customer on time speaks for itself.

  156. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Prabhakar-Regarding this situation of Urgent parts,we tend to store those parts which tend to wear out frequently(on-site).

  157. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @prabhakar, i dont alternate part would do the perfect work, considering a critical application scenario.

  158. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara, Correct. The other point to note is that the design might have even changed. The enclosure might be slightly different or a particular connector could have been dropped in favor of another one. Sometimes I think about the day Apple decides to drop the connector for charging the iPhone and the iPod and replace it with something else. Does anybody have an idea how many Apple devices could suddenly have to find alternate support?

  159. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Susan that's exactly the problem. 

  160. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Prabhakar

    Maintenance and Repair have to be compliant as well. Usually the depot or OEM Repair and Return departments of Customer Service are tied into the same Item Master AVL database and therefore all replacement parts are drawn from specific part numbers that are RoHS compliant as well.

  161. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Double-ordering is much less of a problem than it used to be, from what I understand. Readers: true, or untrue?

  162. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @Tech4people, sourcing from unknown source in a different company is a challenge.

  163. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara-True.Double ordering is easier today.

  164. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji: Shouldn't this change in design be reflected by incrementing the model number of the components?

  165. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Anna-need not be so.There will always be a first time for any such task.U have to be willing to experiment a little.I like to do that during the Beginning of the Financial year(when company is flush with funds) and I know its easier to get them to release cash.

  166. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara, true double-ordering is pretty easier these days.

  167. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    ABolaji: I just went through the tangled mess that is all the connectors I don't use anymore. An industry standard would be great for the consumer. Not so much for the manufacturers, though

  168. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @TaimoorZ, Everything should be documented with the change order notice and information provided to all parts of the supply chain. The problem is that many companies just don't have the processes in place when a change occurs.

  169. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    The service and reapir departments have to handle the EOL parts replacement and many a times the original design team and related documentation may not be even traceable. In this situation the service dept has to rely on external help to get alternate parts

  170. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbaray, why do you think double-ordering is easier these days ?

  171. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @Tecc4People, I'm aware of risk taking. I'm just curious as to how to detect a counterfeit this instance.

  172. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Anna-You just know-Experience.

  173. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    @tirlapur: I don't think it's easy. I believe it is less of a problem becuase double-ordering was one of the reasong for the glut of 2001. So many companies got burned that double-ordering is no longer SOP. But that's from distrbutors…was wondering what buyers say

  174. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @prabhakar

    When the DE has moved onto other companies, another Engineer should be assigned to the mature product. There has to be a three-way connection among the R&D, Manufacturing, andCustomer Service at all times.

  175. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara, An industry standard for connectors? That wuld be good but it's not going to happen. Why? Because even the lowly connector market has gotten technology! And, the after-market support service providers don't want it. The HDMI connector for my phone costs $40! It's just a cable with some pins at the end but because it's special to the phone I had to order it direct from Samsung! That's the way companies keep after-market support sales inhouse.

  176. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Prabhakar-Yeah.Documentation,that's one other story entirely.

  177. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, hmmmm. I suppose so

  178. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, is it just experience ? I think detection of counterfiet needs much more than that.

  179. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Prahakar i dont foresee big OEM have that problem – not be able to trace.

  180. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas, What's the role of the contract manufacturer in all this? Do they get to swap and advice on alternates and do they have the resources inhouse to support such offerings?

  181. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    tirlapur, I agree. I thought so too.

  182. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @tirlapur

    Double ordering can lead to allocations in the worst case. The book-to-bill ratio goes off the map and that causes a panic buying spree and price escalation. Of course this is not always the case, but after awhile a distributor figures out that you are double ordering when you pull in and push back order receipts too often.

  183. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @Anna, as douglas mentioned getting certifications really helps us to detect counterfiet materials.

  184. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Tirlapur/Anna-I dont like to complicate things too much.It makes things way too hard!

  185. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji: I think contract manufacturers should have a say in the quality of the parts and the vendor because their output can directly affected by these.

  186. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    It looks like the component distributors have a key role to play in this issue as they can be the co-ordinating party between the dE, CE and purchase and service.

  187. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Bolaji: If you are going to use a contract manufacturer, you need to have all the controllinng documentation in place.

  188. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji,

    A CM may have an onboard CE but you never want to take that advice more than just a suggestion. It is a good starting point but again the DE and CE needs to approve the part. In the end, the CM is not responsible for your product integrity. YOu are.

  189. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas, intresting correlation between double-ordering and book-to-bill ratio. Thanks for sharing your insight.

  190. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    So far, how has certifications dealt with counterfiet materials?

  191. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Tirlapur, Double-ordering has also in the past boosted sales into the broker market because it distorts demand/supply. In the end, manufacturers end up returning or reselling components they can't use, which end up at brokers and can lead to the mix-up of genuine and fake parts.

  192. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @tirlapur, absolutely. It easier that way to keep track and ensure authenticity

  193. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas In the end, the CM is not responsible for your product integrity. YOu are. That is key.

  194. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Douglas: I agree, but how many OEMS have the resources to double-check on such things?

  195. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    @tech4people, lol!!!!

  196. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Ariella

    Absolutely!

  197. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Hi all: We have about 5 more minutes with Douglas. Please direct your last questions to Douglas now.

     

  198. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Barbara,

    A CE is one of the most under appreciated positions in a company until the line goes down and the CE is on the line for rapid resolution.

  199. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    Are there outsourced providers who can help a company prepare alternate parts list?

  200. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas, can you give some details of the different certification programs that help to identify counterfiet materials.

  201. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    Bolaji, that is a good idea

  202. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    test

  203. Taimoor Zubar
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas: Are there agencies that can do supplier evaluations on your behalf and help you in determining whether the supplier is good enough to work with?

  204. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-Good point. Here

    In the end, the CM is not responsible for your product integrity. YOu are.

    But what I have tend to noticed is that most people don't want to take more responsibility!!!

  205. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji…Leading question. There are many Component Engineering Consultants that wil work with your comapny to find alternate sources.

  206. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Approved screening houses

  207. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Anandvy, We will be detailing this online soon on EBN.

  208. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    @Brian, Thank you.

  209. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    I'm going to start to wrap this up now. Douglas–thank you for your time. Readers: You can also talk to Douglas on line vis his blogs.

  210. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas do you think of Component Engineers as regard cloud innovation and supply chain?

  211. prabhakar_deosthali
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you Douglas !

  212. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-How efficent do u feel those Counterfeiting programs are today?

  213. Ariella
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas, Thank you!

  214. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji, thank you.

  215. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Thanks, everyone for your time. Douglas, thanks for making yourself available. You enrich us all. I'm going to call this a wrap.

  216. bolaji ojo
    June 14, 2012

    I want to thank you too Douglas for answering our questions and the insight. Thank you to all participants too for your comments and for making this a lively exercise. We will be hosting another Live Chat soon on EBN. Please check the site for our promo soon.

  217. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas-Do they give u better than 90% success rates(on capturing counterfeits today)?

  218. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you Douglas – good discussions.

  219. Wale Bakare
    June 14, 2012

    Thanks  alot Douglas!

  220. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    @Wale. CEs are multitasking and highly skilled at various technologies. You can find the best of the best by looking at their experience.

  221. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    but what are the side effects of double ordering

  222. Anand
    June 14, 2012

    @Douglas, thank you for sharing your thoughts…very informative

  223. Anna Young
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you Douglas.

  224. dalexander
    June 14, 2012

    Thanks everyone. I will now cool my typing fingers in cold water. It has been a pleasure working in real time.

  225. Susan Fourtané
    June 14, 2012

    Thanks, Douglas, and EBN

  226. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Adenji-what side-effects do u see personally in double ordering?

  227. SunitaT
    June 14, 2012

    Thank you Douglas.

  228. Brian775137
    June 14, 2012

    @everyone:

     It'a always about the money.  What are he trade-offs?

  229. Barbara Jorgensen
    June 14, 2012

    Readers: Plese continue your discussion. I'll be signing off now, though. Behave!

    🙂

  230. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    Oops looks like I lost the connection!

  231. Ashu001
    June 14, 2012

    @Bolaji/Barbara-Thanks a lot!

  232. Adeniji Kayode
    June 14, 2012

    thank you all

  233. Chethan.1989
    July 2, 2017

    hi

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